Placement and toe-in

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Placement and toe-in

Postby Graz on Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:59 pm

How much - if any - do you use?

Picture links would be interesting... :mrgreen:

Curious - Graz
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Re: Placement and toe-in

Postby Vansloneker on Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:35 pm

Nobody has something to say about toe in?

This topic inspired me to do some testing. I always had about 0.5cm or 1/5 inch toe in, mainly because the speakers visually would look better. So I tried 1cm or 2/5 inch toe in. This was definitely not better. Now I changed to no toe in. I like it that way. Only once, with the old tweeters still in the Centaurs, I had them turned in seriously about 5cm or 2 inch and that moment enjoyed it. Only then.

An issue I have right now, the music sounds great and unrestrained on my dining table about 5,75m or 19 foot away from the speakers, but I have problems finding the magic in the listening seat.

The centaurs now are 1.43m from the rear wall and 2.05m apart measured on the inside edges.
poor guy
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Re: Placement and toe-in

Postby Vansloneker on Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:11 pm

While working on the setup of the speakers I changed the angle. I had calculated an angle so the center of the ribbon would point at the height of my ears. This wasn't satisfying and the spikes gave me problems positioning the speakers because they would make scratches on the tile the speakers are on. So I removed the spikes and put the speakers straight. Now that I positioned them I felt there had to be a little angle. So I refitted the spikes and adjusted the tilt to 4mm difference in the height of the spikes to begin with.

All this got me thinking, isn't it so that what goes for toe-in about reflections and acoustics, has to be rule for tilt of the speakers also?
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Re: Placement and toe-in

Postby JarreYuri on Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:57 pm

Vansloneker wrote:.......All this got me thinking, isn't it so that what goes for toe-in about reflections and acoustics, has to be rule for tilt of the speakers also?


Well not quite, as the longer the ribbon the lesser it spreads any sound vertically. That's the characteristics of a line source.
Take a 1 inch dome for an example. It spreads equally all around.
The larger the transducer the lesser it will spread in the higher regions of the sound spectrum.
If You tried to reproduce high frequencies from the bass membrane of an Apogee planar, it would be QUITE beaming and You would not hear any treble unless sitting in front of it. The membrane would be too wide.

Now take a long ribbon. It is narrow so it will spread horizontally very good but vertically very poor.
In this case it would therefore not spread any high frequencies towards the ceiling nor the floor. ;) And thus no reflections to talk about.
Well maybe some but very very little. :lol:
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Re: Placement and toe-in

Postby Vansloneker on Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:37 am

Thanks, Jarre.
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Re: Placement and toe-in

Postby Graz on Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:55 am

Comparisons between hybrids and panels seem to show most use the hybrids with significant toe-in, and I heve personally enjoyed the Centaur speakers this way, as well as the Perigee hybrids. The full panel speakers seem to like the flatter aspect to the wall for reflections to not be muddled...

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Re: Placement and toe-in

Postby Vansloneker on Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:43 pm

Well I tried again with 1, 2 and 3 inch but it's not working for me, at least not at this moment. 1 inch is the most acceptable. With more toe-in the vocals, which are usually centered, are stronger. But the instruments loose appearance. And most of all, what I would call 'air' goes away. It's like listening to ordinary speakers.
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Re: Placement and toe-in

Postby Vansloneker on Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:36 pm

Latest changes to the position worked out good. No toe-in, little tilt, measured and remeasured all distances to equal them.
I had guests for the weekend, and the first thing in the morning they did was turn on the music. Good sign!
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Re: Placement and toe-in

Postby BobM on Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:52 pm

I found with my Calipers that near-flat was best. Toeing in by 1-2-3 inches is too big of a change. Try 1/4" at a time. Small changes make big differences here.

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Re: Placement and toe-in

Postby JarreYuri on Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:54 pm

Also You should try an "extreme" toe in that will have the focus a few decimeters in front of You.
It has many good qualities.
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Re: Placement and toe-in

Postby Zardoz on Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:04 pm

The original Apogee manuals say to toe in NO MORE than 3/8". I have owned Caliper's, Duetta's, and now Diva's, and I find that having them perfectly (I use a laser) flat and in line with each other works the best. Of course your room will have some impact but the three different rooms I have used over time have responded the same way. Besides being perfectly flat, having them in the exact same plane is essential. I measure out the same distance from each corner and place a line across the room, so that if the back wall is not straight, the speakers will be in the same plane.

While this doesn't have anything to do with toe, I have found that having the speakers level side to side is important, as well as the tilt on Caliper's and Duetta's being exact for each speaker too. I have found all of these positions to be critical to get the very best from your Apogees.

Very small changes in position are audible. A move of only 1/4" can easily be audible.
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Re: Placement and toe-in

Postby esl_57 on Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:58 pm

The dispersion pattern of the line array is as you described it but there is more to it.
The degree to which sound pressure level attenuates is half that of a conventional speaker BUT both these effects are limited in range.
After a distance, determined by the length of the array, the effect reverts to that of a conventional speaker.
You can see what this does to the tonal balance of a multi driver ribbon speaker, who's drivers are of different lengths, let alone a hybrid, as your distance from the speaker changes.
This opens the door to a little thread jacking on my part. :D

I'm new to Apogee and made my first post a request for info on the Slant 8s i came home with last week.
Anyone able to help me out with that??

Thanks!
Bill from Canada, eh. :-)

JarreYuri wrote:
Vansloneker wrote:.......All this got me thinking, isn't it so that what goes for toe-in about reflections and acoustics, has to be rule for tilt of the speakers also?


Well not quite, as the longer the ribbon the lesser it spreads any sound vertically. That's the characteristics of a line source.
Take a 1 inch dome for an example. It spreads equally all around.
The larger the transducer the lesser it will spread in the higher regions of the sound spectrum.
If You tried to reproduce high frequencies from the bass membrane of an Apogee planar, it would be QUITE beaming and You would not hear any treble unless sitting in front of it. The membrane would be too wide.

Now take a long ribbon. It is narrow so it will spread horizontally very good but vertically very poor.
In this case it would therefore not spread any high frequencies towards the ceiling nor the floor. ;) And thus no reflections to talk about.
Well maybe some but very very little. :lol:
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Re: Placement and toe-in

Postby JarreYuri on Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:25 pm

Thanks for adding that true information! :)
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Re: Placement and toe-in

Postby Shibui on Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:44 pm

Happy New Year, All!

Re Toe-in etc Graz:

Toe-In is dead flat with the tiniest of tweaks inward, never more than about the 3/8 inch Jason recommended, the tweaking done by ear over time. A longer process with the DSigs than the Stages or Cepheus 8 hybrids. From observations IMHO Scinnies seem almost immune to bad toe-in positioning...go figure! :geek:

Tilt as straight up as I can manage. Seems to work best for all Apogees IMHO, including Scinnies. :geek:

Distances in my room work best with MTWR at about 7 feet apart and plane of speakers at least 6 feet from the rear wall. :geek:

These positions seem to me and my audio-friends to provide a very deep, wide and clear soundstage with no weighted area - ie prominent or weak center image etc. :mrgreen:

I'll try to get some pics posted here over the Spring of 2012, as I am in the midst of some mucking about. There aresome pics posted in the forum members' gallery (but had to get Florian's help to transfer and to post on the site, as some Java nonsense kept cropping up.) :oops: :oops: :oops:
Glen

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