What? By What? and How Much?

[dasign]

What Apogee speakers do you have? If they were stolen by an audiophile thief , would you replace them? By what brand of speaker model? How much would it cost you to replace your beloved babies?

Let me start first, I have a pair of DS Signature and I would replace them by:

1) A used pair of DS Signature which I would rebuild the Xover ($2k used pair + $1.5K Xover rebuild)
2) A new pair of Magnepan 3.7 at $5.5K

Dasign

[Zardoz]

After spending several years with dynamic speakers in between and before various Apogees, I'm not sure I could do anything other than find another pair of Divas, Full Range, or Scintillas. I might checkout Wilson Sophias, but they are way more expensive.
I really do love the Apogee sound.

[Vansloneker]

If the Centaurs and the Calipers were stolen I might look for a Duetta though rarely seen. If I can convince the insurance company of the 'true value' of the speakers I'd go for one of Graz' products.

[User211]

1) A used pair of DS Signature which I would rebuild the Xover ($2k used pair + $1.5K Xover rebuild)
2) A new pair of Magnepan 3.7 at $5.5K

Dasign

3.7s surely cost more than $5.5K new?

Dasign - have you heard a pair of D Sigs with all Graz ribbons in them? If not, are you running the original ribbons in your Sigs? Just wondering... not having a dig.

[EldRick]

"3.7s surely cost more than $5.5K new?"

Nope - they would be a really good buy if my GrazD-Sigs were somehow destroyed...

[dasign]

3.7s surely cost more than $5.5K new?

Dasign - have you heard a pair of D Sigs with all Graz ribbons in them? If not, are you running the original ribbons in your Sigs? Just wondering... not having a dig.

The 3.7 are listed at $5.5K in the US market.

Not yet, but I will right after Xmas...I have talked to Rich Murray a few months ago but delayed my DS restoration project because of my kitchen rebuild...Yes, I am running on the original ribbons which play perfectly well for 95% of the time. The other 5% is the dreadful Apogee buzz when playing music content with subterranean bass content, which is really a turnoff for me, since I listen mainly to Jazz, Rock and Electronica which all have minimal bass content.

I've talked to Rich and he confirms that once the DS frame is stiffened up and ribbons replaced, there will be no more buzz. Just need to get my $$$ together and will do the job in Feb/March timeframe. These babies played well for the last 15 years, I rebuilt the Xover 2 years ago and I really cannot imagine myself without them. I even joke with my wife to use these as a coffin when I pass away .

Dasign

[christoph]

hello dasign

prepare yourself for a HUGE improvement in soundquality when changing from original ribbons to the all new graz ribbons (KLM5 in my case)

if someone took away my scintillas, my studio grands and my centaur majors and the insurance would fully cover the damage i would see three possible improvements.
unforunately all of them require very deep pockets

- henk's recently wonderfully refurbished Grands (if they are still for sale?)
- graz's all new synergy 1.5 v2
- lansche audio cubus (horn system with corona tweeter)

look here how they look: http://www.esotericaudio.co.za/images/cubuspapel.jpg
or here more detailed: http://www.ib-lansche.de/Service/LANSCH ... _cubus.pdf


cheers, christoph

[apogee_admin]

Heard the Maggie 3.7's at the September Hi-Fi Show over here, if I were looking to spend £6k on a pair of speakers and Perigees or Apogees didn't exist they would be on the list, but they don't sound as good as any of them, especially in the bass.

Jon

[dasign]

hello dasign

prepare yourself for a HUGE improvement in soundquality when changing from original ribbons to the all new graz ribbons (KLM5 in my case)

Hello Christoph,

Did you have any Xover mod during the ribbon replacement? Or the Xover still stock?

Dasign

[christoph]

hi dasign

the x-over in my studio grand (more studio ribbon array as the sub is only used as a bulky, sturdy stand ) is untouched and therefore stock.

if i had the x-over modded and the ribbons (KLM5) at the same time, i could not say where the increase in soundquality originates

go for new ribbons. you won't regret it, i promise

justin also has duetta sigs and he is "pretty" happy with his new ribbons. maybe he can chime in and say some words...


cheers, christoph

[dasign]

go for new ribbons. you won't regret it, i promise

Hello Christoph,
Thanks for the clarifications on your ribbon upgrade. Agreed that if you do to many mods at the same time, it is impossible to identify the source of improvement. Glad to hear that you love your KLM5.

If I understand this correctly, the KLM5 is strictly MRT ribbon? If so, I would get 2 different types of ribbons for the upgrade, Graz-DSB-KLM for the bass panels and KLM5 for the MRT? Does the KLM5 ribbon require a Xover mod to match the other ribbon? Any concerns about ribbon discontinuity? Sorry I have to ask all of these questions .

I really like the actual sound of my DS with rebuilt Xover. Graz, please join in for further clarification on these ribbons. I've looked at the web site 'repair section' for the KLM5 and found nothing . However, I did find KLM5 discussions on the Apogee speaker chat but all related to the KLM5 MRT.

Dasign

[Graz]

I have been staying out as much as possible the last year as when I chime in it tends to end the chat!!!

KLM = Kapton Low Mass - a "Rolls Royce" grade of the original Kapton specs as used by Apogee. When used without a number this denotes "0" type adhesive on the kapton, coated here in house, an expensive premium chemical grade. I have found this adhesive to be excellent for the bass ribbons, superior to the original construction used by Spiegel/Bloom/Walker/Schuman for their ribbon construction.

KLM5 = Kapton Low Mass, but with the 5th type of adhesive I developed for use primarily with MRTW constructions, again coated in house here. This is a very expensive adhesive, chemically similar but even better. Of course has many of the "0" properties, taken to new levels of tolerance.

KLM2 - worth a mention as it is still the current grade of tweeter-only ribbons offered. This is a good adhesive "2", better than the original 1980's chemistry but completely different. A nice MRTW solution.

Crossovers. The crossovers do not need modification with any of these ribbons as the foil work is absolutely blueprint accurate to the original construction, grade, metal composition/construction of the original foils.

XLM - this is a lighter mass version of the KLM kapton.


Advice. This will read like an advert but xover mods and "extras" will take a back seat to a ribbon upgrade vs a perfect original speaker, by design. This is of course my opinion, some have shared this here. None of this is based on myth - as all ribbon work I have done here for the classic or new Apogee's has been based on sound science and engineering. Cost was never a factor during prototype work - the emphasis was always on getting things right! In order of effect, all imho;-

1) Bass and MRTW ribbons

2) Magnet alignment. More of a joint first place really - tolerances here are equally important to ribbon topology tolerances. If they are not right, then the result will be compromised.

3) Frame bracing. Keep the frames quieter than when made and the sound will be more faithful from the ribbons

4) Stands. Brace work should be complimentary to the bracing of the cases.

5) Settle on a configuration and remove the switch, and solder the entire circuit, at the same time replacing the brass terminals with copper ones - or hard-wire to set leads from the speaker.

6) Inductors. Pot in conductive resin, or replace with potted or foil equivalents, measured from the Inductor - NOT whet is written on it!

7) Capacitors. Upgrades to be heard here - no advice offered, everybody has their favourite cap!!

This should draw some comment


Take care - Graz

[Vansloneker]

I have been staying out as much as possible the last year as when I chime in it tends to end the chat!!!....[/.../]...This should draw some comment
Take care - Graz

This information should be sticky even when you wont get many replies then.

[dasign]

KLM = Kapton Low Mass - a "Rolls Royce" grade of the original Kapton specs as used by Apogee. When used without a number this denotes "0" type adhesive on the kapton, coated here in house, an expensive premium chemical grade. I have found this adhesive to be excellent for the bass ribbons, superior to the original construction used by Spiegel/Bloom/Walker/Schuman for their ribbon construction.

KLM5 = Kapton Low Mass, but with the 5th type of adhesive I developed for use primarily with MRTW constructions, again coated in house here. This is a very expensive adhesive, chemically similar but even better. Of course has many of the "0" properties, taken to new levels of tolerance.

KLM2 - worth a mention as it is still the current grade of tweeter-only ribbons offered. This is a good adhesive "2", better than the original 1980's chemistry but completely different. A nice MRTW solution.

XLM - this is a lighter mass version of the KLM kapton.


Take care - Graz

Hello Graz,

It seems that there are multiple choices for my DS ribbon upgrade. On the bass side, I could have either the KLM or XLM. On the MRT side, I could either have a KLM5 or KLM2. My guess would be that the right combos would be KLM/KLM2 (closer to original Apogee design) or XLM/KLM5 (lighter ribbons). Please comment on the plus/minus of either combo options.

Dasign

[User211]

Dasign,

Make sure you get KLM5, whatever. KLM2 is very nice, but subjectively can't match the awe inspiring performance of KLM5. KLM5 unravels, gets to the heart of the input signal, sounds incredibly clear & resolving. Sometimes, it sounds plausibly real - and that is not said lightly - it really does.

An approved fitter's option only, but I can only say it is worth it.

KLM2 is musical, but can't unravel and resolve as well. It also behaves visibly differently. It tends to curl at the edges. The glue used in KLM5 causes the ribbon to behave in a more linear fashion - the whole ribbon moves rather than having a tendancy to curl.

KLM5 takes a long time to break in - in my opinion 200-300 hundred hours. I don't think Graz agrees, but hey. Going through that process is hard - and it is difficult to see the light at the end of the tunnel. But trust me - the results are simply fantastic when they are "done cooking". The same is sometimes true of ESL panels, which can take months. I speak from 20 years Martin Logan ownership experience. They are better speakers than MLs, in my opinion. Otherwise, I wouldn't be using them.

Good luck. Much depends on lots of other factors - as Graz has pointed out. Much depends on what you think about the end result - and you may find the result of whatever you have done needs tuning. I'm lucky enough to have had a refurbisher who lives close enough to do so.

When you get you're Duettas up to scratch, I honestly believe you'll be bowled over. I know I am. What freaks me out is I know it is possible to do even better... I'm talking more money on something like Synergy 2s, though. Or extra things you could do with Duettas - like frame bracing and stands you could even have a stab at yourself - if you know you could do it well. If not - leave as is!.

Enjoy.

Justin

[dasign]

Hello Justin,

Thank you for the insightful review of the KLM5 ribbon. My intention is to have my DS completely refurbished (ribbons, frame strengthening, magnet alignment, probably front cover replacement with new cloth, etc.). Funny that your're mentionning that the KLM2 tend to curl. My original MRT/bass ribbons rarely move. Scary tougth to think about these ribbons curling up .

Could you explain what mod you had performed on your DS? On my side, I rebuild the Xover to be an external one using pretty nice audiophile grade components like Mundorf Supremes caps, Alphacore foil ribbons, Duelund resistors, WBT NextGen spade connectors inside for the ribbon and for connection for external Xover to the speaker binding posts. Installed the Bybee speaker bullets. Got the support frames redone to replace the El Cheapo original stands. So the only original parts are the frame, magnets and ribbons.I have performed these mods step by step, to understand the impact on sound. The crazy thing about the Apogee DS is that every mod I've performed makes a difference .

I am really looking forward to the overall ribbon/frame rebuild.

Dasign

[User211]

Let's be clear - KLM2 only curls when playing at highish volume and above - it is absolutely fine otherwise. EDIT: and when it does curl - there don't seem to be any noticeable adverse effects audibly. It just curls a bit!:)

If you go to the user's system section you will find a link to a thread on the Martin Logan Owner's forum which describes the rebuild in full.

By the sound of things, you're going further than I went with mine.

[Lars]

I'm very happy with my pair of Stage. I believe the size would scare away the average burglar but if he knows Apogees well he would probably be too scared to move them because the bass ribbons can't be replaced.

If they disappear, I'd probably buy something else and save up money while waiting for Graz to make an affordable Stage sized speaker with serviceable tweeters and basses. I've listened to Martin Logan Vantage but I wasn't tempted to replace my Stages.

[dasign]

Heard the Maggie 3.7's at the September Hi-Fi Show over here, if I were looking to spend £6k on a pair of speakers and Perigees or Apogees didn't exist they would be on the list, but they don't sound as good as any of them, especially in the bass.

Jon

Hello Jon,

I was a little curious about your comments on the 3.7 bass performance. I wanted to make sure that the DS restoration project made $$$ sense and went to listen to the Maggie 3.7. We tried them with latest Classe Audio stereo amplifier (300W/300W) and the sound was somewhat OK in the mid-treble range, but totally lacked lower bass content. We tried some Exposure monoblocks which improved the bass content but still too far from the bass extension and resolution of my moded DS.

Also found that the 3.7 has a 'nasal' sound in the midrange. However I suspect speaker cabling was not of best quality and caused the impairment. The music spatial representation of the Maggie 3.7 were very close to my DS,to the exception of the lower bass. Proper lower bass content tends to anchor overall soundstage presence. This was really lacking in the 3.7. While many audio reviewers raved about the Maggie 3.7, it was a great disappointment to my ears. IMHO, the 3.7 are not a direct replacement for my DS, not even a close one...So you Apogee owners out here, keep these babies for a long time, they still are at the top of the chart of the best loudspeakers shortlist. What a class act still nowadays.

Dasign