Using Audyssey X-Over with Mini-Grands

[scratch17]

After waiting for years to upgrade to a modern pre/processor, I finally took the plunge and ordered the new Marantz AV-8801. I should have it in a few weeks.

Currently, I run the Mini-Grands, my Persius LCR (center) and Centaur Minors (rear) as a 5.0 configuration with all speakers set to large and no sub.

The AV-8801 has Audyssey XT32, with the dual sub option. I want to use the built-in crossover that comes with the Marantz/Audyssey system, to replace the Apogee DAX. This will configure my system as a 5.2 setup.

I will still use my Llano A-100 on the Stage panels. The subs will be driven by a new Marantz amp, the MM-8807. It is rated at 150 RMS into 8 ohms, and 180 into 6 ohms.

I am hoping that simply letting Audyssey set the crossover point during auto setup will do the trick. I have high expectation that this will be a major improvement.

I'll post my impression of the results if any members are interested.

Steven.

[scratch17]

O.K. I've had my new Marantz AV-8801 for about 3 weeks. Unfortunately my dealer was unable to get the matching amp (MM-8077 - 7 channels, 150 into 8 ohms, toroidal power supply, copper chassis, etc.) yet. I expect to have it within a month or so.

In the meantime, I'm using a Marantz MM-7055 ( 5 channels at 140 into 8 ohms) on loan from my dealer. I am continuing to use my Llano A-100 (100 into 8 ohms, class A) on the Stage panels of my Mini-Grands. The MM-7055 is powering the subs, the Centaur Minors and the Persius LCR.

First, I must say that I am extremely impressed with the sound quality of this new preamplifier / processor. And this with only a very quick Audyssey XT32 setup, as my audio / home theater room is still not in its final configuration.

A note about my room is warranted. It is about 20 feet long by 12 wide by 9 high. In my old setup, my Mini-Grands were about 5 feet from the front wall, and 20 inches from each side wall. I had a large Salamander cabinet containing components on the wall between the front speakers. This cabinet was wide enough on both sides that it was directly behind each Stage panel.

I used an old sofa (about 82 inches wide) for seating. The MRT's of the rear surrounds (Centaur Minors) were aligned with the Stages' MRTs, relative to the room's side walls, but they were closer to the room's rear wall (about 2 feet), than I'd have liked. The Persius LCR was on the Salamander cabinet, only about a foot from the room's front wall.

Finally, the rear wall of the room is only about 42 inches high. It opens to a two story atrium below, and a stair well on one side. I had tried some foam wall treatments on the side walls, but had no noticeable improvement, so I removed them. No other items are on the walls. The floor is carpeted.

The changes to the room I'm about to describe were implemented before the new electronics came. I had about two weeks to evaluate the room change without the new electronics. That gave me a good idea of what these changes did to the sound of my original system, so I was able to determine the change brought about by the new electronics, with out influence from changing the room. by the way, the room changes improved the original system quite a lot.

Now the sofa is gone. I purchased a pair of Ekornes Stressless recliners, which arrived before my new electronics. I tried both side by side, but didn't like the way that each blocked some of the sound from the other seat. So I decided to use a single recliner in the absolute sweet spot, with other seating provided by a love seat (about 64 inches wide) on the back wall behind the recliner. I have to build a platform for the love seat, so that it can view the TV unobstructed by the recliner. The Love Seat is not in the room right now.

I also moved the Centaur Minors. They are now about 4 feet from the rear wall, but are also only a foot from each side wall. I was worried that this placement would negatively effect surround music, especially quad sources. My fears were not only unfounded, it turns out that the Centaur minors can actually present a solid and coherent image all the way across the back which actually appears from behind the listening position. This may have more to do with the smaller footprint of the single recliner (about 42 inches wide) compared to the much wider sofa. Also, the rear image is much wider with the new position of the Centaur Minors.

The other physical change came from my Salamander rack. It is now less wide, so it is not between the rear of the Stage panels and the wall. I will eventually add some custom built diffuser panels on that wall space.

Before I get into the changes wrought by the new electronics, I need to recap my original speaker / electronics configuration. The center and surrounds were powered by my Marantz SR-8500 receiver (110 into 8 ohms). I used the Llano on the stage panels, the DAX to crossover from the panels to the subs, and an Acurus A-150 to power the subs. The receiver had only distance and delay settings; no EQ. This was effectively a 5.0 system, with all speakers set to large in the SR-8500 speaker management page. None of the low and mid bass content that was present in the center and rear channels was sent to the Mini-Grand subs in this setup.

With the new pre/pro, the DAX is gone. Audyssey sets the crossovers. All content from all channels below the speaker's crossover point is now sent to the subs. So now I have a setup that is a 5.2 configuration for music.

So with those preliminaries out of the way, on to the changes wrought by the new pre/pro.

After measurement, Audyssey correctly assigned the crossover points for my Stage panels (front left and right), measuring them as full range. The Centaur Minors (surround left and right) and Persius LCR had their crossover points set at 40 hz. Notice that this is about the specified 3 dB down point of both models.

Of course the Mini-Grand subs get the bass frequency content that is below these crossover points. Also note that this pre/pro has Audyssey HT Sub EQ. This is an Audyssey technology that does separate measurements for each of the two subs, and applies correction to each based on their individual characteristics and room placement. So, for instance, you could use two different subs from two different manufacturers, and gain, delay and EQ correction would be applied to each. Of course, in this case, I am using the subs built into each Mini-Grand panel base, so room placement is the biggest variable used by Audyssey to determine correction applied to the subs.

I don't have additional Apogee speakers (or the space) for the wide , height or back surround speakers. Initially I'm only using a pair of NHT 1.3A for the wide surround. While these wide, height and back surrounds are matrix derived (either from Audyssey DSX or DTS Neo), I decoded to try the wides on movie, TV show and sports events to see if I liked the effect. So far, I find the Audyssey DSX with wides does enhance the experience.

I haven't tried this on music. I will at some point, but I doubt I'll want to use this feature with music.

So, to the crux of the matter. What about the difference between using the DAX versus Audyssey to cross over between the subs and panels on the Mini-Grand?

The overall improvement is instantly noticeable. But it is qualitatively different between stereo and multichannel sources. So what are the common improvements? In all cases the image is wider, and more coherent, across all frequencies.

I was surprised to find that bass instruments are much more locatable within the image. This is especially true on multichannel sources, but there is more pin point imaging of low frequency instruments in stereo as well. I suspect that in my old setup, requiring center and surround channels to cover all frequencies in low frequency producing instruments may have masked some of the directional cues. By directing very low bass content from these channels to the subs the correction may have helped reveal the image detail. Also, having real stereo subs may be helping the image of low frequency instruments. Yes, I am aware that as frequency drops, human hearing loses image cues. However, Audyssey corrects for gain. A relatively large amount of gain coming from one direction can make the instrument appear to be coming from that direction, regardless of frequency.

As for sub/speaker integration, Audyssey beets the DAX hands down. The DAX did a fair job of making the crossover range relatively unnoticeable. Audyssey makes it disappear, at least to my ears.

So, bottom line is a hearty recommendation to all Apogee owners. Consider Audyssey XT 32. Even if you don't own a Grand Series, but you want to integrate a sub or subs to your system, I think this is the way to go. For those who want to upgrade a system with a DAX, this is a no-brainer, in my humble opinion.

Here are some final notes. You can't use Audyssey's crossovers with Pure DSD. If you think about it, this makes sense. Audyssey operates in PCM audio. DSD is a completely different digital format. To use both, you must transcode DSD to PCM. That is the way I have been listening to my OPPO BDP-93 with SACD. The OPPO streams DSD to the AV-8801, which converts it to PCM so that correction can be applied.

I took pictures of my original setup and room in early December. I will take new pics in a few weeks after my room renovations are done. I'll post them in the User's Systems area of the forum. I'll also give a longer term followup review of the setup sometime after that.

[rastanearian]

Full Audyssey calibration has much to offer.

[rastanearian]

Did you do the complete 32 point calibration or the 8 point calibration built into the unit?
As for your subs, they are now running mono but likely crossed over low enough to not be too noticeable. Obviously not the end of the world based on your impressions.
I have the stand alone Audyssey 8 channel unit and while I can appreciate the improvements it offers the actual "sound" of the device is awful and I can't bear to have it in the signal chain. I'm Very disappointed by that.