New Centaur Minor owner

[Vansloneker]

I'm pretty sure the filters went in after the speaker was built.
Bypassing the connection that is made with the switch to normal is easiest. It means everything will stay in place except that connection is shorted.
If your friend is not confident working on the crossover he shouldn't do it.
Then you better find a classifies electronics workshop or repair man, but they charge for the hours they make.

[Odysseyss]

Van so you are saying just leave out low and high, and leave just normal switch connected? I need to be sure I like my speakers set at normal. Or do you just leave switch circuit out completely. Thanks again for your knowledge .
Regards
Ken

[Vansloneker]

Lets not get confused.
Your question was to improve on the sound of your Minors.
There are a few steps you can take and I put these in order of likely effect most to less: better filter components, not yet mentioned new ribbon, better internal wiring, better binding posts, disable/remove switch.
Best bang for the bucks is to have the caps and resistors replaced.

You are not capable of doing works on the crossover, which is nothing to be ashamed of. But you have a friend who said he could do it. It appears to me now your friend is not so much skilled in electronics that from reading the postings in this topic and studying the crossover diagram he knows what to do. Sure he want's to help but you maybe pull him into something he can not oversee.
It's not rocket science but the level is up from soldering a plug to a wire and if he does not have basic understanding of the working of the parts and the filter he should not do it.

It is difficult to produce a manual like you get with furniture -put screw A in hole B then turn it right to fasten it- for this job.

I recommend get sorted what you really want and take that job you want done on the speaker to a skilled audio electronics repair man.

[Odysseyss]

Van,
Thanks again for your replys. Your suggestions sound good. As for new ribbons I assume you mean new ones from Graz. As for my EE friend, he knows what he is doing, it's just my questions that make you seem he is not sure how to change things. He has over 45 years fixing, rebuilding all types of stereo equipment , Mcintosh, Fisher, Scott, mostly tube equipment . But he also has done crossovers, he even said according to Minor schematic , it looked easy. Only thing it is hard to get too, not like yours. If he was speaking to you , you would understand his knowledge of electronics. I am asking these dumb questions, so I may sound like I do not know what I'm doing, which is true. But he is very competent . All I'm asking is for some insight from you for my info, which I will share with my friend. Don't get me wrong I do appreciate your time and answers. So for now once we get the binding posts and switch done, he will further see what else he can do with the room he has to do it.it is a big crossover board, and no way can it be removed, not from back or speaker hole. If you could see it you would understand. I will still be in touch with you as this saga continues , it's just a matter of time. You are cool no problem.
Regards
Ken

[Odysseyss]

One more thing, looked up where you are fom, the Netherlands, nice country, as well. You are nice too. You are safer living there than in U.S., that I assure you.
Regards
Ken

[EldRick]

IMHO, assuming ribbons are OK, far and away the best bang for the buck will probably be potting the coils. Maybe $20 for epoxy or potting resin, big improvement on almost all Apogees.
Replacing them is pointless, as the wire used was heavy-enough gauge, and all you really need to do is fix the windings from any possible movement caused by their own magnetic field and the mechanical vibration of the speaker itself.
And the main thing to fear here in the US is politicians: we need to start putting body cameras on all of them...

[Odysseyss]

Eldrick,
Do you have any more things that can be done, that is easy to do on the Minor. The crossover is really hard to work with, you already read my posts to Van, so you know what I mean. Van has been a great help.
Regards
Ken
And yes the politicians are nuts in this country .

[EldRick]

I potted the coils on my D-Sigs, bypassed the caps with small values (much less costly than replacing them), and soldered all the crimped connections. I haven't bypassed the switches, although I may do so.

On the Slant 8's I had, I also replaced the coils, and it was a big mistake. Even though the new coils had the same impedance, they had lower resistance, and the net was that the bass range became boomy. If you do replace the coils, plan on revising the crossover, as the levels and crossover points will shift - a complex technical job.

[Vansloneker]

Hi Ken, considering that the crossover board cannot be removed from the speaker case, and soldering in that situation is a crime, an option is bypassing the existing caps. Your friend could even solder little clips to the ends of the caps and very easy clip them on. E.g. like on this image

But all new caps will give you so much more. If it is possible, remove the coils (leave the big coil that is separate from the board -if it has one), pot them and make a new crossover with caps and resistors that will squeeze in.

[OT]From my American friends and also from an epic episode of TopGear UK I am a bit aware what the US is like. But I tell you about the Netherlands and this may sound very impolite and like a rant: the Dutch they are totally nuts![/OT]

[Odysseyss]

Thanks all for your help and comments. Looks like the next time my EE friend comes over he will do the new binding posts and switch out the normal low high to just normal. If he sees something else he can do we will do it. He has to come to my house to do it. He is also busy so this work may not be done till sometime next week. I will be it touch on how things work out and what he did. Don't know why Graz thought it was easy to take out crossover in the minor. You have to see it to see how big it is on its board,and no way is it coming out of back or front.
Later
Ken

[Vansloneker]

Is it a factory crossover? Graz really knows a lot of Apogee's. I hardly can believe the crossover was fit before finishing the speakers, but then I do not own a minor. At least from recent history I can't remember someone discussing the Minor crossover. Could there be another way the speaker internals could be accessed?

[Odysseyss]

Van,
Yes original crossover. When you take off those 6 screws then t back comes off and the binding post hangs. Then it's full of some hind of Cotten batting. It is on back wall of speaker, on a board, about seven inches wide and at least 16 inches long. No way it's coming out if Graz can show me a photo of it coming out it would be nice, but I see it could not be done unless we saw off entire back, which we will not do. To work on crossover would be very hard, not much room for a pair of hands to get thru that binding post hole. Like I said if he could get to it no problem, but no way. I wish we could do it thanks again
Regards
Ken

[Zardoz]

Hi Odysseyss and welcome to the club.

I think you missed something in the conversation though, go back and read the entire thread. The xover comes out through the speaker cone opening not from the back . You have to remove the speaker from the front, to get to the xover board. Many speakers are like that.

Best of luck with your project.
Z

[Odysseyss]

Yes I read that, but the crossover is big and stuck on wall of inside of speaker. I can't see it going thru a 6 or 7 inch hole. Even if I took og grill how do you get crossover out? Any pics of the Minor crossover? To me it seems a big job not including getting those darn speaker grills off. Will just end up doing a very minor mod, new binding posts and taking out switch. Thanks for your help.
Regards
Ken

[Gordz]

Hello,

Given that this the longest and largest running post, I thought I needed to be part of the history, and on the Minors no less, the smallest and cheapest apogee ever made. To be fair is mostly Van and the Centaurs.

So.... did your Minors come with stands? 2 versions were available. The Minors definitely need stands.

Cheers,

Gordz
Minor original owner

[Odysseyss]

Yes I have the stands, filled ith sand and original boxes. They are mint, one owner. Ribbons look very good nice color no kinks, woofer still hanging in there. Paid 600.00 U.S. For them.....any tips on them? Do you know about this Minor crossover?

[Vansloneker]

I had sort of hijacked the topic and earlier asked Apogee Admin to split it but he still has to do it. @Apogee Admin: it is easy, really.

Ken, the C-Minor woofer is 6.5 inch so that's about the size of the opening. I couldn't find pics of the C-Minor's internals. I think not many people work on the internals of the Minors. This is actually your chance to make history.

[Odysseyss]

Thanks Van,
If only you could see it. It would even be hard to work on crossover from front speaker hole too. My EE friend even thought it would never be removed that way. Looks like maybe a few resisters, the new Cardas post and bypassing the switch, that's about all that will be done for now. He may come bye next week to do this . I'll keep you posted on how it came out. You guys are the best, now digging myApogees with SRV playing....

[Vansloneker]

No one ever said owning an Apogee is easy ...

[Gordz]

Hi Ken,

Glad to hear that you have the stands. I have zero experience with the crossovers, but have been reading with great interest, maybe something to try when I retire, which will be some time now with these oil prices.

It seems that the big question is "were the crossovers designed to be removed"? ...or are they just glued to the back panel.

Van is correct, the woofer is 6.5 ", and there is about 60 to 70 % white batting inside which would need to be removed. The woofer has 4 screws, so a quick easy removal.

Van, I have enjoyed your post, just having a little fun!

Gord















Gordz

[Odysseyss]

Thanks Van and Gord,
Yes only six screws , and the crossover is on back wall of woofer cone, but i see no way to get it out. The batting is no problem to remove. Gord just for kicks try taking off your six screws on speaker post, pull out batting and tell me if you can work on it and how wide and long it is. But Van Ido love the sound of Apogee. I may have told you I've owned two mint pairs of the Majors, should of kept one, but as an audiophile you know the story.
Regards
Ken

[Vansloneker]

Apogee Centaur front grill removal
A step-by-step how I do it. Do at your own risk.


Get a set of screwdrivers, from smaller to larger.



Wriggle the smallest screwdriver in the gap, a little from the top and under the plug, then add a 2nd screwdriver next to the plug on top



Carefully keep wriggling to the front, when the gap widens insert the next size screwdriver



This is how the plug is positioned



The middle plug is easy to detect with a piece of paper



Again wriggle the smaller screwdriver in the gap and as close to the plug as possible



And insert a 2nd screwdriver above the plug


The plug in the middle next to the ribbon is the hardest to do. At all times be careful and avoid maneuvering the screwdrivers near the magnets. Remove any magnetic sensitive object from your body.

[Odysseyss]

Thanks Van,
This will help a lot if I want to replace the woofers, or check out if crossover can be removed, which I doubt. The board is glued to back. Anyways will keep in touch on how things work out. Still wish someone in the forum did a Minor crossover mod and Knows how it comes off.
Regards
Ken

[Odysseyss]

Van googled your speaker and seen it from back. Yours is so different than mine. I see that you can take off back panel and speaker biding posts. Yes like you said a piece of cake, not so with the Minor, can not just remove 4 screws to get to crossover like yours. No one yet has come up with anything on how to get to crossover to work on it. Graz saying get it from fron woofer, no way, does he have a picture of someone removing or even doing a crossover mod to Minor. Just saying....

[Graz]

I have seen 2 types of C Minor, and a third (very rare) sub category of the second type.

Type one has a board-to-board construction with an inset top and bottom end

Type two has a back box built mitred

I have a version here of the mitred one that has a port in the bottom under the terminals

The terminals on the one I have here are in a plastic inset tray mounted tight into the back of the box, with 6 screws fixing. The port is underneath.

Crossover is located under the cone on the front baffle, and access is via the woofer hole. All wadding must be removed after the cone is removed/disconnected. As I have not removed the crossover or the wadding I do not know if the crossover is glued to the baffle, or if the baffle board can be safely disconnected from the box.

If you are serious I would suggest to remove the cone, then the wadding, then get a good close camera and photograph the inside. Look for connections between the baffle and box.

My gut feeling is this was assembled on a baffle, tested, the back box fitted/glued and boxed for sale!

It would be interesting if you could post pictures of what you have. Perhaps a sure way to upgrade the xover would be to redesign for outboard fitting. Remember - upgraded parts will likely be larger and this will change the internal volume of the box.

Advice = leave well alone, except upgrade the terminals to copper, perhaps biwire.


Take care - Graz

[Odysseyss]

Thanks Graz, I think I have type one, and no port. It would be a pain to take out. Like you said let well enough alone. My EE friend is only going to put in some copper Cardas binding posts and take out the switch, leave at normal. The speakers do sound good as they are, if it would be easy to get to like the Centaur, it would be easy for him to replace parts, he seen the crossover schematic, and said he would have no problem with it, if we could get to it. Maybe when he comes over next week to do the small mods he can take a pic, and I'll try to post one if I know how, he may. Thanks for every thing, will keep all posted.
Regards
Ken

[Vansloneker]

Is the crossover board glued rock solid to the back, or is there a little movement possible when you try to rock it? In the latter situation it is probably fixed using silicon, and you could try to get it of using a knife cutting through it.

[Odysseyss]

Yes Van seems crossover glued to back like Graz says and it don't move. Also no way you could get in it with a knife I've or something to cut it. Looks like I will have to stick to original plan. Too much work to do this. If only it was like yours, no problem for him.its really stuck on back very good, like Graz said the made it this way then put then built the speaker around it with crossover in first.
Thanks
Ken

[Vansloneker]

I recommend bypassing using the trick with the clips mentioned above. Even with the Minor it should be possible to bring them in position, and they are easy to remove if required.

NorthCreek suggests to use 0.5 to 1% of the value of the main cap for a bypass. So for the high filter a bypass of 0.22mfd should do. Ribbon connecting cap 0.10mfd or a little bit smaller if it can be found. And the low filter cap can also be bypassed with about 0.22.

At least try it, get one pair of reasonable 0.22 bypass caps for the high filter and try it. It will cost you only a few dollars. If you have a positive experience you can try a better pair of bypass caps. If you still enjoy it you can bypass the other sections of the filter.

I have to remark the outcome of a bypass cap on an existing filter is never predictable. One cap may work magic, the other may just not fit in the sound. But with a good mach you'll never regret it, only that you didn't do it earlier.

[Gordz]

Here is a link to the old forum that I found on the net on removing the crossovers.

http://www.apogeeacoustics.com/oldforum/003362.html

My minors are the same as the ones that Graz has described, but there is no port.

Still trying to figure how to get all that batting back into the speaker through the small hole in the back;)