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Author Topic:   Planar Speaker Placement with Room Coupling and Soundstage Synchronization
gallant_diva
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posted May 31, 2010 10:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gallant_diva   Click Here to Email gallant_diva     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello Folks:

No, I am not coming back regularly but I gained (initially) so many good lessons from here that I feel I need to give back a little. Below is some of my thoughts including those learnt from friends on speaker placement. I thought I should share with Apogee users and hopefully it can benefit them. I am not sure how many of you have already tried this out (I know Michael Kong and I read magman has been using this idea). You may or may not agree and it is just a thought. As they say often state here, IMHO.

my very best to all

GD
---------------------------------------

Almost all audiophiles acknowledge the importance of speaker placement and yet very few really care to experiment with it. An audiophile’s speaker placement is typically based on intuition, influenced by factors such as initial listening, manufacturer’s recommendation, WAF, consideration to the rest of the objects in the room including furniture, windows, doors, etc. Once the initial position is decided, whether right or wrong, the speakers often remain there until replaced, precluding experimentation and hence missing the possibilities of additional optimization.


The fact is that speaker placement is as essential as the speaker itself because the room and speakers operate as one entity to produce sound. Imagine how much time and energy people spend, sometime going out of way and even to a point of obsession, in trying out cables, vibration control, and power treatment. However, the speakers’ positions and their relationship to the room, which is what actually produces sound, are hardly tempered with. It just goes to show yet another peculiarity of audiophiles and their priorities drawn in a wrong order. I often find people hesitant to move their speakers but keen on trying out a $2000 speaker cable or a “sucking life out of music” power conditioner. When offered a friendly advice, the typical answer is “Oh, I think this position is just fine,” or “spikes make it difficult to move.” Not with standing such excuses, the hesitation primarily stems from a goodwill belief which is at best unsubstantiated. What they do not understand is that the room and speaker need to be viewed just as one entity that should function in a perfect harmony. The correct position wherein that harmony occurs is to be determined through moving the speakers, experimenting with the distance to the back wall, distance from the speakers to the side walls, toe-in angle, and the position of the listening seat including its distance from the speakers and the rear wall. Here, I provide a guideline that can serve as a starting point that will need to be further refined by the listener because every room is different. Specifically, the suggested guideline is aimed for planar speakers like Apogees and Maggies that will achieve optimal speaker placement by determining the focal point for room coupling for achieving best bass response, and finding optimal soundstage synchronization for best imaging and soundstage depth and width.


The effect of speaker placement is more profound for planar speakers compared to cone speakers. The reason being their dipole radiation pattern simply adds one more parameters to the complexity. The dipole radiation pattern can be a blessing because this is what adds the third dimension to the sound, but only if properly harnessed. Several sound characteristics get affected from speaker placement. The foremost is the bass. If you get the bass right, usually the midrange and highs do get right as a side effect. Bass can be done right by determining the focal point of the room. The other things that get affected are the soundstage (the depth and width) and imaging, which can be done right by soundstage synchronization. I expound both of these points below.


Speaker placement is done primarily in one of the two ways. The first is the conventional position in which the speakers are 3-5 feet from the front wall, with sufficient distance from the side walls. The listening seat is typically at a good distance from the speaker as determined by the convenience. Some people place their seat too close, using a position called near field listening. I have never been a fan of near field listening as it can get hard on ears and is good only for some music.


There is apparently nothing wrong with the conventional position as it does give a “good” sound. The only problem is it is far from the optimal! First of all how could this be an optimal position for every room? Every room has its own acoustic character, with peaks and dips, cancelling and exaggerating certain frequencies across the audible band and producing phase cancellations. Second, dipole speakers are firing to the front and back. While the conventional position provides an ample room to the front wave, the back wave has only a fraction of it. The myth is that by keeping the speakers 3-5 feet, the back wave reinforces the front wave and if you move the speakers further, this reinforcement disappears. The reality is that in this position, the back wave does not optimally reinforce the front wave as it is just an assumption (some people even “scientifically” support it by calculating the time for the back wave to return, which does not make any sense). The second myth is that if you move the speakers further into the room beyond 3-5 feet, the bass disappears. The bass does start loosening up but the sound wave is a cycle, and if you keep moving the speakers further, the bass will get stronger again.


Thus, this position is a gross compromise and is taken for granted. Minor changes such as a few inches here and there, toe in, and acoustic treatment, only incrementally alter the sound for better or worse, giving a false perception that you have achieved the best for your room. In fact, you got the back and front wave totally out of alignment and thus are missing the essentials of the maximum soundstage expansion that your speakers are capable of.


The second option is the non-conventional placement, thinking out-of-the-box, using an approach in which the speakers are pulled way forward into the room. The objective is to determine the focal point and soundstage synchronization for a given speaker-room combination.


First, for determining a room’s focal point, the room should be a rectangle. The commonly popular 1.6 by 2.6 ratio works fine, even though longer lengths or other ratios would be fine too. The rule of thumb is that no two room lengths should be multiple of each other. The notion of room focal point is pioneered by Ivan Lee, a friend from the Far East friend (the one who introduced me to this concept). According to Ivan, every room has a focal point, a spot where you get the minimum phase cancellation and hence minimum distortion.


To start the speakers should be placed along the length of the room. The wall behind the speakers is referred to as the front wall while the wall behind the listener is termed as the back wall. The speakers should be at about 40% of the room length from the front wall (thus leaving about 60% length in front of them). The speakers should also be close to the sides wall, ideally, leave a distance of about 6-9” from the outer edged of the speaker to the side wall; of course, you need to have the same spacing on both sides. Note that this is only a guideline and incremental changes will still be needed for every room.


You will need to experiment with plus minus 4-6” of that position. Ivan recommends 1/3 of the room length to start with and slowly increasing it but I think 40% is a better starting point because Ivan’s experience has been with Maggies, and also because I think if you start with 1/3, you will eventually move to close to 40% anyway.


Further optimizations should be done from this initial starting point because every room is different and has its own peaks and valleys in sound. Again, Ivan’s method is very effective for this purpose. Once the speakers are placed at 40% of the room length, you play some loud music with all kind of instruments, especially bass. Then you walk from the back wall to the front wall slowly following a straight line that runs along the exact central axis, passing between the two speakers. You will need to bend down a little such that your ears are at a height that is near the center of the mid/high tweeters. As you walk like a monkey (do it when your wife and kids are not home, or else they might think you gone totally mad) hear the loud music carefully and then stop at the point where it is the loudest. That is the focal point of your room. Place the speakers on that line across the room.


The next biggest gain in sound that the non-conventional position brings you is what I call front-back soundstage synchronization. This synchronization is the alignment of the two parts of sound. The first part of the soundstage is the one being created by the front wave and the second part by the back wave. When the two parts are perfectly aligned in a focused manner with your sitting position is also at the correct point, you achieve the best imaging, and deepest and widest soundstage.


A common misconception is that with the speakers placed in the middle of the room, the back wave disappears or the back wave is mostly out of the equation. The fact is on the contrary: The back wave is rejuvenated and plays a central role in imaging, sound staging, layering and depth, and defining the boundaries of musical instruments. But the following principles need to be observed for proper synchronization.


First, absolutely no toe-in should be employed. Another common misconception is that the central image will be tighter with toe-in. This is simply not true. The only thing toe-in does is to increase the level of tweeter energy because highs are very directional. The negative effect of toe-in is that the back wave is out of synch with the front wave and that is contrary to our goal. With the non-conventional placement, there is a sound image at the front wall if you stand near the back wall and face the speakers. Incredibly, there is also a sound image on the back wall if you stand at the front wall and look back at the listening seat.


Second, place the speakers as apart as possible such that each speaker’s outer edge is close to the side wall. Depending upon the width of the room and the width of the speakers, in a reasonably sized room, that should leave good 6-9’ inner distance between the speakers. If you start losing the highs with a distance less than 6-8 feet, then there is something missing in your electronics (assuming the speakers are not rolled off). The point is to place the speakers as far apart such they are close to the side walls, or until you start losing the highs. Note that this is in contrast to the conventional position wherein a larger distance from the side wall is preferred. But now, with the non-conventional position, all parameters are different – you need the side walls to reinforce the bass, and the mid/highs reflections will not have a negative impact.


For testing, play some music in which there is a right, left and central image. For example, play Holly Cole Trio, Don’t Smoke in the Bed. Holly Cole will be right in the middle. Right, there is nothing new here. But now is the time for a monkey walk again. Stand up from your listening seat, bend down a little (such that your ears are at the level of the mid-point on your speakers’ mid/high driver, and walk on the straight line (midway between the speakers) towards the front wall, going between the speakers. You will feel you are floating into Holly Cole’s image. Keep going until you touch your face to the wall -- you will feel as if you are kissing the central image. Now, turn around and look back. The central image will now be on your listening seat near the back wall. Now walk back and again you will be floating into the central image. In fact, the central image exists in the whole central axis front to back and back to front. And when you sit in your listening chair, the whole energy of the central image in that axis will be focused into the middle but with a three-dimensional effect. You have achieved soundstage synchronization. If you do not get this effect then you need to move your speakers bit by bit, left and right, and front and back until you achieve this effect maximally. I am not sure if cone drivers can give you that effect. By now you can probably guess that with toe-in, the back image gets out of focus and hence offsets the soundstage synchronization.


The next step is to determine the position of your listening seat. The starting point I recommend is 40% of the room length measuring from the speakers (thus leaving 20% from the back wall). There is no need to maintain any special ratio between the speakers and the distance from the speakers to the listening position, soundstage synchronization will be achieved by moving your seat plus minus one foot and stopping where you get the best image and mid/high/bass, all to be determined by you. Do experiment with it and make a final determination yourself.


This will give you the deepest, widest soundstage coupled with best imaging and best bass. The images from music will be painted on the front wall, side walls, in front and back of the speakers and many of them will give a three dimensional effect. Do experiment as it does not hurt to try. If it does not work for you, your room is not a good rectangle. If your wife or girlfriend gets in your way, try to convince her or bargain with her. And if that remains a problem the chances are she is not sensitive to your needs, implying that you may have to think of some more serious options.


Very important: Remove all acoustic treatment from your room before doing this. You can experiment with putting those things back after you are done with your positioning. The chances are you will not need them because the effect of room coupling and soundstage synchronization is so powerful with the results are so stunning that you will not really need any of those acoustic things, especially the tube traps because they will do more harm than good. But do experiment if you like and you might be happy with putting some of those panels back but they will probably require new positions.


My Fullranges are placed at about 11 feet from the front wall in my 16 by 26 feet room. Their outer edges are about 9 inches from the side walls. Of course, I use no toe-in. My listening seat is about 2 feet from the back wall. This is where my focal point and best soundstage synchronization is. I do have a 2’ by 4’ DIY skyline diffuser on the front wall (in the middle) though and it gives me a tighter central image. I did try placing 6 feet tall tube traps between the speaker outer edges and side walls. It gives me a bit more weighty bass presumably because it is virtually extending the effect of the Fullrange side wings but it also sucks some highs and mids. Ultimately, I prefer listening without the traps.


Before I discovered the non-conventional position, I perceived the sound in the traditional position to be great but now there is no way I could listen to that again. The layered soundstage, imaging, and bass that I have now is sheer magic. It gives me what the planar speakers are meant to do. The bottom line is that your room and speakers are just one entity and hence need to be perfectly mated. Makers of Apogees and Magneplanars probably knew of it but would not recommend it because it would give them the stigma that their speaker need to be placed in the middle of the room which is not wife- or furniture-friendly.

Do try it because it does not cost anything.

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christophs
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posted June 01, 2010 12:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for christophs   Click Here to Email christophs     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hi ish

nice to have you back here.

at least on a temporarily basis...


cheers, christoph

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Carlton
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posted June 01, 2010 06:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Carlton   Click Here to Email Carlton     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
IMHO this should be done before anyone spends another cent on gear upgrades. As stated, room/speaker interactions are often ignored even though they give the biggest gains.

Great post.


------------------
Carlton
Main
MacMini->Firewire->KRK ERGO->Digmoda DDC552->Apogee Scintilla.

Secondary
DBS->Sony EP9ES>4 Dayton APA150> Apogee Centaur Minor Front> Apogee Centaur Columns Surround> Behringer B2092a Sub

[This message has been edited by Carlton (edited June 01, 2010).]

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bobb
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posted June 01, 2010 06:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bobb   Click Here to Email bobb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ish,

Good to hear from you again. I knew you were lurking out there somewhere. Thanks for the info......looking forward to reading it later when I have a few mintues.

take care,
bob

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brucewar
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posted June 01, 2010 06:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for brucewar   Click Here to Email brucewar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Ish,
Good to hear from you; wish we could convince you to make regular visits even with the place as contentious as it can be at times. As for your placement ideas: good advice and, as you probably remember from your visit here, pretty much the placement I'd found through trial and error.
Bruce

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joseph
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posted June 01, 2010 07:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for joseph   Click Here to Email joseph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ish -

Welcome back! Do stay for a while...

Very interesting treatise. Worth trying, for sure. Magman has a very similar setup and it works very well for him. (Except for the toe-in, I will convince him to try no toe-in again).

Joseph

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kipdent
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posted June 01, 2010 08:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kipdent   Click Here to Email kipdent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I appreciate the advice from Ish so much that it's costing me untold amounts on redesigning my listening room plans. Thanks, Ish!

Seriously, though, the approach just seems to make sense and it's how I'm going to proceed in my new room if and when it ever gets built. I guess the idea would even work if--yes, Bob Aranyi--I decide to install my Beveridge Model 1 electrostatics, as experienced owners of that speaker state placing them about halfway into the room (though facing each other) is ideal.

[This message has been edited by kipdent (edited June 01, 2010).]

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Al
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posted June 01, 2010 09:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al   Click Here to Email Al     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ish, Well said, I use that approach as well including the monkey walk . A must to be single or have a dedicated sound room though . Al

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rube1
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posted June 01, 2010 04:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rube1   Click Here to Email rube1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ish,

Thanks for sharing! This is the kind of topic that can bring things "back on line"!

2 questions:

1) do you feel this info also applies to the hybrids (Centaurs)?

2) I have a nice rectangle (12'x18'), but one of the lengths has a large opening to our main door foyer. Does this opening "change the equation" in any way?

Thanks!

Joe (rube)

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thekong
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posted June 01, 2010 11:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for thekong   Click Here to Email thekong     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have posted Ivan¡¦s method of finding the focal point earlier in this thread: http://www.audioworld.com/sw/Forum1/HTML/000563.html , but didn¡¦t get much response.

When Ish came to Hong Kong, he visited Ivan and now he is a believer :-)

In Ish¡¦s rectangular room, the 40/60 placement would probably get you close to the optimal position. For non-rectangular room, you just have to follow Ivan¡¦s method to find out yourself.

I have a roughly rectangular room (but with one corner truncated) at 15¡¦ wide and 33¡¦ long, and found the best speaker position at 11¡¦ from the front wall.


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Jose Manuel
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posted June 02, 2010 12:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jose Manuel   Click Here to Email Jose Manuel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Really good post and topic Gallant, thanks a lot for your help.

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wsill
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posted June 02, 2010 06:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wsill   Click Here to Email wsill     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ish,
Great post. I have learned so much from your efforts over these many years.
Please stay, don't go too far.
Bill

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christophs
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posted June 14, 2010 12:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for christophs   Click Here to Email christophs     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hi ish

do you happen to have pictures from your actual setup?

has anybody else tried this method and can share their findings?

my studios are now 2m away from the backwall and it sounds better than ever. i'm still experimenting...

cheers, christoph

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narkotic
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posted June 14, 2010 03:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for narkotic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A simple search on audiogon yielded:


[This message has been edited by narkotic (edited June 14, 2010).]

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christophs
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posted June 14, 2010 03:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for christophs   Click Here to Email christophs     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
thanks for the pic, pete.

now after i know where to look i found some more pictures and i looks like the apogees are now standing, where the listening chair used to be...

i think the listening chair should therefore be almost at the end of the room now??

maybe ish can chime in and tell us the distance of the listening chair from the back wall...


cheers, christoph

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sea-speak
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posted June 14, 2010 04:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sea-speak   Click Here to Email sea-speak     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It sounds like what Ish is suggesting is more or less described here as well:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/faq.htm#Q31

See also

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm#D

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K2.NL
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posted June 14, 2010 04:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for K2.NL   Click Here to Email K2.NL     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by christophs:
thanks for the pic, pete.

now after i know where to look i found some more pictures and i looks like the apogees are now standing, where the listening chair used to be...

i think the listening chair should therefore be almost at the end of the room now??

maybe ish can chime in and tell us the distance of the listening chair from the back wall...


cheers, christoph


No need Christoph, it is all written down in Ish' first post: "My listening seat is about 2 feet from the back wall."

Regarding experiences of other people. For years now Stanleys Scintilla's have been located many meters out of the frontwall. Nowadays it is about 3 m (1/3th of a 9 m long room). His Scintilla's also have been positioned close to 4 m out of the front wall. IMO the 3 m position works better in his room. This might also have to do with the "laidback" character of the Scintilla.

More useful information in the post started by Kip: http://www.audioworld.com/sw/Forum1/HTML/008137.html

Kees

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gallant_diva
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posted June 14, 2010 07:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gallant_diva   Click Here to Email gallant_diva     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in


christophs, Carlton, bobb, brucewar, joseph, Al, rube1, jose manuel, wsill, and everyone else, thanks for the kind words.


I will try to answer some questions without going into the repeat mode of what I already wrote. First of all, what I am suggesting is still a matter of opinion, not a science, even though one *can* try to justify it with science. But in audio hobby it is all based on listening rather than hard science. So what I am saying may not be facts according to some, and that is perfectly fine.

Basically, what I am doing is:

1. Rejecting the conventional speaker placement

2. Suggesting to think with an out-of-the-box approach and strongly recommending to experiment with your speaker placement and optimizing it based on your listening by using the effect of dipole radiation of Apogees and similar speakers to its full potential.

3. I am not recommending the 1/3 rule (as Kees is showing as example).

4. In a nutshell, the idea is to pull the speakers way forward into the room (more than 40% from the front wall), keeping them closer to side walls and no (or very minimum, such as 1/8 or 1/4 inch) toe-in, and keeping the listening seat not too far from the rear wall.


5. Using this as a starting point you will need to experimental in *your* own room by moving the speaker a bit forward and backward by listening from the front and opposite sides so that the speaker is totally coupled to the room and front and back soundstages are full expanded and linked.

So what you get is huge soundstage, layers of imaging on the front and back of the speakers (even side walls) and bass with the maximum slam.

I remember a guy (another Apogee owner with Stages) from he DFW area came to my house and listened. After a long listening session he said the sound of my system was very impressive but had no depth. When I looked at him, he said he had the same sound with the Stages so he hoped I did not mind his comment. That made me think and wonder and I finally realized that his comment was true. But I just did not know what to do about that. I assumed that if I moved the speakers more, I would lose imaging and coherence. Then all of the Apogees I heard in other people's systems had the same problem. The only difference was my sound was still better overall compared to another other system that I heard and even still better than many of the best cone drivers based system using some of the most expensive electronics. So I assumed that I still had the best sound that I could have squeezed from my system. What still bothered me was two things.

1. Imaging. Oh yeah, Apogee do not image as well as some of the cone speakers. So I am the same league.
2. Depth? hmmm, not much can be done about that. There are compromises, right?


You see this is the mistake most people make, that is follow what everyone else is doing and place the speakers in the conventional position, that is 3-5 feet from the front wall, using some toe-in and determining the speaker distance based on whatever gives better image in that position. Now, talk about experimentation. Sure, we all like that. So move a few inches here and there, and then assume that you found the best spot. Isn't that what Apogee also said? So we are fine, right? So now lets throw money on electronics, cables, power conditioners and everything else that claims to bring a "huge" improvement in sound. Wrong!

My first shock came when I listened to Michael Kong's system in Hong Kong. A pair of modest Duettas compared to my giant Fullranges, driven by high quality amps (Sonic Frontiers) and exotic turntable setup generated a huge soundstage with pinpointed imaging and unbelievable bass. The speakers were almost 40% forward into the room. When I first entered the room, which was 15 by 35 feet, I thought to myself what is Michael trying to do with these tiny spakers in such a big room. But after listening, I told Michael it was the best Apogee sound that I had heard and one of the best sounding systems even compared to the top systems regardless of the price that I had heard. Next, Ivan Lee invited me to listened to his system, a pair of Maggies 3.6 driven by a Conrad Johnson tube amp and using the same placement principle. Again, it was an absolute eye (and mind) opener. Then Ivan explained the concept to me and all I could do was scratch my head and admit to myself that I had more to learn. After I returned from my Hong Kong trip I could not wait to try the same method and was stunned to hear it after I made the change.

The depth and width of the soundstage and the quality of imaging will murder any cone driver system while retaining all the details and good characterizes of my previous sound. And it is the same thrill every time I listen.

Pete: Thanks for posting the picture of my system. It is in fact obsolete as it was taken after the first trial for the new position. I ran out of speaker cables as I pulled my speakers forward. Later, I experimented more. Now, my speakers are pulled forward about 2 feet more as I experimented more with room coupling and soundstage synchronization more. And guess what? I am not using the "Centaur-Fullrange" now. Instead I have gone back on the original Fullrange and it is driven by two amps, Tube Research Labs GT-800, and GT-400, for a total tube power of 1200 WPC. With this new speaker position, all of my previous misgivings against the Fullrange which had prompted me to make the "Centaur-Fullrange" are gone. I no longer than woofer and mid/high coherence problem or larger than life images. Life is good.

Kees: If you want to try this, the Scintillas should be standing totally upright for this method. I do not recommend the 1/3 rule. Try 40-50% as a starting point.

Rube1: I think the method can also work with the hybrids. Try it.

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christophs
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posted June 15, 2010 01:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for christophs   Click Here to Email christophs     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hi ish

quote:
Originally posted by gallant_diva:
Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in

now you made my day ROFL

are you quoting the film godfather directly or the quoting from "sil" in sopranos mocking the quote from god father.

anyway, i had a good laugh. thank you.

and now i start to read the rest of your posting above...


cheers and thanks, christoph


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narkotic
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posted June 15, 2010 11:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for narkotic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ahh you went back to the foil only drivers... cool man.

Was good visiting with you when you came over, you're a mad man! See, I just drink alcohol to over-come the poor room that I have, makes it all sound way better!

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Graz
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posted June 15, 2010 03:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Graz   Click Here to Email Graz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Michael Kong has almost unique Duetta Signatures - the only others that have been configured like that were some ENOCORE prototypes that were just used for testing for a short while. The bass drivers are my standard KLM, the MRTW's foil only, with a unique interface, slightly related to DEFINITIVE. Very special, active only.

That 40% idea is not a new one, and works well with especially the foil only Apo's, all can benefit. This was mentioned (unnoticed) in Kip's room thread actually!!

Glad you are back on the foil Ish, though something is on it's way to you that may tempt you back to multi-element Don't do it - stick to foil with the FR!


Take care - Graz

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K2.NL
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posted June 16, 2010 02:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for K2.NL   Click Here to Email K2.NL     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gallant_diva:
Kees: If you want to try this, the Scintillas should be standing totally upright for this method. I do not recommend the 1/3 rule. Try 40-50% as a starting point.

I would like to try this out Ish, but not sure if Stanley does ;D

What I will do the next time I visit Stanley is at least measure the exact distance to his front wall: the present situation (close to 1/3th) and the old situation (close to 40%). I will also check the rake angle. The distance to the sidewalls is quite similar to your set up.

In both situations the depth of the soundstage btw is staggering, esp. with the 40% positioning. So much though that I think it is to much. I prefer the present situation in this regard. As I wrote in my previous post I wouldn't be surprised if the laidback character (regarding the soundstage of the Scintilla) might got something to do with this as well.

btw: We didn't check positions in between the present and old situation as these are simply not realistic due to things like the presence of doors etc. When small differences in distance to the frontwall however can make very significant differences in overall performance, well then I guess there's a realistic chance that we haven't witnessed the full potential yet.

Kees

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gallant_diva
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posted June 16, 2010 10:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gallant_diva   Click Here to Email gallant_diva     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kees:

As I mentioned in my article, every room is different. So I am not recommending 40% as a solution. I am suggesting a range 40% and above, may be up to even 60%, that is a search window. You will have to find your own best coupling and best synchronization, by using the methods I described, in that window.

Graz: Thanks for the ribbons. I had switched from stock fullrange to "Centaur-Fullrange" because of 5-6 factors that I got better with the latter. I wanted to make some repair to the custom made wooden panel for the C-Major ribbon. SO while it was being done by an expert woodworker I brought on the original FR mid/tw panel and used it in the new speaker placement position. Now with the new placement, those problems with the original FR simply do not exit because the soundstage and imaging is so profound. IN fact both ribbons sound equally great but I am sticking with the stock FR for now and working on optimizing it further.

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