Refurb or not to Refurb

[Musicid]

I have a pair of Duetta Sigs that have developed a buzz.
What are the sonic differences between the following:
1. Stock Sigs vs. Refurbed Sigs with Graz ribbons and rebuilt crossovers
2. Refurbed Sigs vs Divas.

The cost of the Diva's Refurbed is about 4-5k more than the Sigs. And I will need another amp. Is that worth it?

Current equipment:
Threshold T400 (150w Class A)
Tube Audio Design TAD150 Signature
Rega Apollo CD player.

thank you in advance

[Zardoz]

Hi Musicid,

I had a pair of Duetta Sigs and had the ribbons replaced, but didn't upgrade the crossovers. I replaced the Sigs with a pair of original Diva's and thought the Divas were better, although, not a huge difference. I then upgraded the Diva crossover and this made a jaw dropping difference. I have since replaced the ribbons in the Divas as well, and noticed another improvement. So while I haven't actually heard a completely refurbished set of Duettas vs. Divas, I think the Divas would come out on top by quite a bit based on what I have heard in my system.

As for exact differences between them, I would say you pretty much get more of everything (inner detail, dynamics, sound stage, bass, high end) with the Divas as long as your room can handle them. If your room isn't big enough, you will strangle the Divas where the Duettas would probably sing. The crossover upgrade makes them sound more "real" than anything I have ever heard under $50k and more.

With both I was using a Krell FPB600 amp, so power was never an issue with me.

Just my 2 Cents.

Good listening,
Z

[kucharsk]

I agree; if your room is big enough, you simply cannot go wrong with Divas, from original to fully refurbed, with sound quality increasing commensurately. I'd even go so far as to say original Divas will still sound better than fully refurbed Duetta Signatures.

The key is, your room has to be big enough; the original Diva manual recommended the following as minimums:

• 4' - 5' from speakers to rear wall
• 6.5' - 8' separation between speakers
• 12' from speakers to listening position

Very few rooms are that large, but if you can pull it off, sheer heaven should result.

[Zardoz]

kucharsk is right on. Also, something I found to be really important is the distance from the side walls. You should have a MINIMUM of about 18-24", and 36' would probably be better. Too close to the side walls and everything gets muddy and thick sounding.

[apogee_admin]

Have to say this original Divas will NOT sound better than rebuilt Duettas.

A percentage of the sound depends on the crossover, with the original Diva crossover and horrible switches in place a rebuilt Duetta will sound significantly better than Divas.

[kucharsk]

I suppose that depends on what's done during the rebuild; for example, some rebuilds are ribbons-only with no attendant crossover changes.

[Zardoz]

I would say, upgrading the crossover is the biggest improvement by far. The amount of improvement from the ribbon replacement will depend a little on how "bad" your ribbons are, while the crossover rebuild will, and I can't emphasize this enough, make them awesomely better.

[artm]

Well, that is rather surprising...that the upgraded crossovers result in a more subtantial improvement than a ribbon replacement.

Of course, that is just one user's opinion but, if generally correct, I find this troubling considering the cost and the purported higher quality of the new ribbons.

I would put my faith in the ribbons being the primary and most substantial improvement. Again, this is from faith not experience.

[apogee_admin]

The wording of my previous post was a bit ambiguous when I read it now.

I didn't mean that the ribbons don't make a major difference, they do. I was saying explicitly if you compared a rebuilt Duetta (I am assuming here everything has been done including the crossover) to a Diva, the Duetta would sound better.

The comment about the Diva switches is because I was so dumbfounded how much they messed the sound up. When I swapped from Duettas years ago I really wondered if I had done the right thing as they really didn't sound any better, if not worse in the mid/treble at the time.

Back to answering the original post, rebuilt Duettas in sonic quality bang-for-your-buck terms are an audio bargain. Divas have a bit more bass extension and more room filling qualities if you have a BIG room, so if you don't have another $4-5k to spend don't lose any sleep over it.

Jon

[User211]

While I have never heard original Apogee stock ribbons, there has be a marked improvement in the Duetta Sig MRT ribbon with the advent of Graz's KLM5 versus the older KLM2. KLM5 isn't just a small improvement, IMHO, but quite a leap forward. The perceived resolution KLM5 is capable of is quite markedly higher than KLM2 achieved.

Refurbished Duettas Sigs really are fantastic speakers. They're so good, in fact, I am investing more money in another pair built to an even higher spec.

[dasign]

I have rebuild my DS Xovers about 3 years ago and can confirm that this mod is worth all of its money. I extracted everything inside the speakers to the exception of the ribbons/magnets and built external Xover to facilitate future replacement of better grade components. I was truly happy with the increase in overall resolution. I would sound wise rate the stock DS at 6.5 on a scale of 10. Once Xover job was completed, the DS earns a 8.5/10.

However, my DS still had the 'buzz' when played at higher levels with music with high bass content. This is when I decided it was time to have my DS sent to Rich Murry for a complete ribbon/frame overhaul. Rich did a wonderful job. I can now rate my DS as 10/10. They sound so good, that I will never sell these babies. If I would loose these in a fire, I really don't know with what speakers I would replace them with...

I have listened to the latest Magnepan 3.7 and my DS just killed them. The 3.7 has limited bass compared to the DS. The closest match in the mid/high frequency department is probably the Martin Logan CLS @ $25K, but my refurbished DS just has greater frequency extension the bass department. I really think I would have to spend over $30K on a new speaker set to come close to the sound quality of a refurbished DS.

IMHO, you cannot go wrong with a complete rebuild of the DS (Xover/ribbons/frame strengthening). The DS is such a formidable speaker to start with. I have heard a stock Diva a few years ago, which was slightly better than a stock DS. The Diva had better bass extension and can be pushed at higher audio levels with less distortion than the DS. The Diva required a lot of room to breathe, which I did not have. My listening room is '18 x '11 x '8 and the DS just fills it up and could surely enjoy a bigger room than this one.

So be careful about going with the Diva if your room is not big enough...Besides the refurbished DS is really an audiophile bargain and will be a keeper for life.


Dasign

[BobM]

I also recently removed the crossovers in my Duetta Sigs and put them in an outboard box to upgrade them. Yes, they do sound remarkably better than stock now. But I kept the switch for H-L-N. I generally keep them on "N". Do these switches suffer the same as the Diva switches? Should I just hard wire it to N and take them out of the circuit?

Thanks,
Bob

[Zardoz]

Rip 'em out!! You are running your signal through a $2-3 switch after improving the other xover components.

[Graz]

Watching this one with interest

Re switches - they have no purpose. I believe a crossover should be as simple and purpose built as possible, and that if shaping is required this should be handled at the source/pre where component losses are at a minimum compared to switches and power parts. Remember - all xover parts interact inline or in physical proximity (electrical or mechanical), and also remember that the switch inserted in an audio chain of high quality wires, inductors, resistors and caps is surely the weakest of weak links...

Take care - Graz

[dasign]

Kudos to Graz and Zardoz,

My Xover switch always remained in the N position before refurbishing my Xover. Once it was time to rebuild them, I only kept parts involved in the N position and got rid of the switch. The contact surface of the internal switch is so small and of non-audiophile quality, that it was a no-brainier to get rid off.

[kucharsk]

Does anyone know off-hand what the three positions of the switch do, electrically?

Is "Norm," "Low" or "High" the equivalent of no switch?

[Zardoz]

There is no position that is like no switch. The Xover is actually 3 Xovers in one. The switch changes which set of caps and resistors the signal "sees", so each position sort of gives you a different Xover. Each position is like "no" switch if that position is what you want your Xover to reproduce. Figure out which position meets your room and likes, and remove the extra components (especially the switch). Or if you aren't ready to rebuild the Xover, just remove the switch and wire the appropriate wires together to eliminate the switch from the signal path, leaving the setting you need/prefer.

[apogee_admin]

The LOW setting is no switch, but maximum components, and generally sounds too dull.

NORMAL is the switch down position, internally it connects the middle contacts to the top contacts like this

o o
│ │
o o

o o

HIGH does this

o o

o o
│ │
o o

[artm]

Well, if your ears are so good that you can distinguish sonic qualities with the switch installed and without it then good for you.

I would agree that the switch itself is not the best it can be so just replace it. Remove the switch and install a terminal block. Make the connections with short copper wires.

Changing connections is not as easy as having a switch but you don't need to do this often, if at all.

[BobM]

So I went into my outboard Duetta Sig crossover, identified the wires that go to "Normal", clipped them from the switch and connected them together with a wire nut.

Holy crap does that sound good now! Get that switch out of your circuit if you can.